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Topic: The final demise of non religious circmcision in England.  (Read 5883 times)
Fritz49
« on: October 18, 2004, 07:27:55 AM »

Infant Circumcision got a big boost in England when Prince Albert convinced his wife Queen Victoria that they have their sons circumcised.
He had been influenced by a group of doctors in his native Germany, who at that time believed it improved hygiene and discouraged masturbation.
(of course he never had it done to himself!) As a result of the Royal Princes being "clipped" it became fashionable among some of the aristocracy to follw suit with their sons.Once some of the aritocracy started doing it, the upper middle class followed suit. Evidently it never became vey popular with the working classes, and there were holdouts among some of the upper classes. Unfortunately, since the Amaerican upper classes wanted to emulate the British upper classes in everything, they started the practice in this country in the late 1800s. Unlike in England, the practice filtered down to all classes, reaching about a 90% rate by the 1980s.There were some natable "holdouts, such as the Italian-Americans in the Norteast and the Polish-Americans in the Chicago area.
Two other groups that didn't follow the "trend" were the Amish and most Native Americans.( Not surprisingly the practice was followed by certain segments of the population in different parts of the former British Empire, such as Canada, Australia, South Africa etc.)
At the end of World War II Grat Britain instituted a National Health system, and the decision was made to exclude "infant cicumcision" from the procedures they would pay for, as there was  no proven medical need for it. As a result the practice has dclined to less than !% of infants.
Of the few "holdouts" were the Royal Family. As a result, Queen Elizabeth's sons and nephews were all "cut". The one to put an end to this (no pun intended!) was Princess Diana, when she refused to have her son William circumcised, against great pressure from the Queen and the"Palace" to follow their tradition. Similarly, Prince Harry remained intact. So we have Princess Di to thank for putting the final "nail in the coffin" as it were to this needless practice , in the U.K. It's a shame that this did not get more press in the U.S. so as to have speeded up the already ocurrinring reversal of this trend. In the mean time in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the rest of the British Commonwealth has followed the example of Britain in almost eliminating the practice of infant circumcision. Its time we speede the process along in the U.S. by bringing the debate into the publics face!!!!! Any ideas out there of how to accomplish this?
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Ottol1
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2005, 11:22:17 AM »

Thanks so much for that information! It's important to me to know that history!
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Hank5
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2007, 12:16:16 AM »

You can read more about the demise of routine infant male circumcision at
http://www.geocities.com/stopric/
This barbaric practice is gradually being phased out in all civilized communities where it is practised for non-religious reasons. (And why any religion should require body mutilation is beyond me).
 stretch
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jonjon
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2007, 06:48:40 AM »

New York is considering promoting adult circumcision. See article in USA Today
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-04-07-nyc-circumcision_N.htm?csp=15

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Mahelf
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2007, 12:34:39 PM »

(...) The one to put an end to this (no pun intended!) was Princess Diana, when she refused to have her son William circumcised, against great pressure from the Queen and the"Palace" to follow their tradition. Similarly, Prince Harry remained intact. So we have Princess Di to thank for putting the final "nail in the coffin" as it were to this needless practice , in the U.K.

It seems  Prince William was convinced by his father to be cut himself too (and probably his brother) after his mother died. He would have undergone a "hernia" surgey in a private clinic in London, that in fact could have been a circumcision. It is possible that among all circumcised royals, uncut heir to the crown could have felt himself out of the family tradition.

Also an interesting webpage here : http://www.circlist.com/rites/british.html

In France, circumcision was very rare until the 70s-80s, only performed in the Jewish community and for rare phimosis cases.

A "half-circumcision la francaise" was en vogue in the 80s, which consisted in only cutting the half of the foreskin, in order to keep the head half-covered when being flaccid. I indeed well remember two young basket-ball players who had undergone this "posthectomy" (its actual medical name). I freely spoke about it with one of them, he told me that there was no difference in sensitivity, while masturbating and having oral sex and sexual intercourse (with girls)  were more comfortable. He even showed me the result - that I used to see in our lockerrrooms - and this was very well made : neither scar nor loose opening skin, the penis looks like bein a "short-skinned" intact one. (Waw... The guy was very handsome... so nice was his lovely "half-hooded" willly !).

Since hundreds of thousands African, Algerian, Moroccan and Tunisian families migrated to France in the 70s-80s, circumcision which is required for their religious or traditiional rites boosted in the French hospitals and clinics, where it is performed under "phimosis" official reason, in order to be indemnified by French Social Security. A doc told me that for a long time it has been decided by French authorities to prevent the threat of serial-butcherring by barbers and other non-professional circumcisers - with hygiene and mutilation risks involved.

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USAuc
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2008, 04:48:38 AM »

If this French ballplayer had NO scar and looked just like he had a naturally short foreskin,  then is it possible that he DID just have a short foreskin.  If someone had cut it off there would be a scar.
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monica
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 02:36:17 PM »


The only hard facts are that Buckingham Palace announced in 1948 that a London mohel had come to the
palace to circumcise Prince Charles. There was no such announcement for William or Harry. Routine circumcision was fairly popular with the UK upper
and upper middle classes, between 1870 and 1950. This fact is consistent with the mention of circumcision in the biographies of a number
of distinguished Englishmen from that era. Richard Dawkins, born 1941, has written of the rich mix of cut and uncut in the locker rooms
of the boarding schools he attended in the 1950s. The rest of the narrative that started this thread is, I submit, urban myth.
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frank44
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2009, 01:44:35 AM »

Hi Monica,Some might  also say,so is describing Richard Dawkins as a " distinguished Englishman from that era".
                    I don't know what you had for lunch on the 26th,but most of your emails of that date are both pompous and fatuous.Doug
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monica
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2009, 04:50:13 PM »


Frank44: reread my post. A full stop appears between "era" and "Richard Dawkins." You are free to make up your own mind as to how
distinguished and reliable Dawkins is. I merely report what he wrote in one of his books.
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2009, 08:45:34 AM »

Its  interesting  that  Fritz49  brings  this   all  up     It  was   german   doctors   who   helped   bring  the  idea   in  for   one   and  also  in  this   country   USA    kelloggs  also   promoted  the  idea    that  all  males   be   circed   as  well.   Aftyer   WWI   and    especially  the     Second  world  war the  military    really  promoted  it   due to     the  lack  of  hygiene  in  the  war  zones  so  from  that  point  on   it  grew   even  more.   And  in  the    early  1940's    a  Dr   ben  Spock  the  baby  doctor   also    promoted  the  idea   that   ever  baby   should  be  cut    the  trend  really   grew    even  more   again  the  hold  outs   being  the     Italian and  polish  Americans   some   german  families  the    Amish ( German Baptists)  and  the   Natives Americans   (Indians of  the  south west)  and   today    the  influx of  hispanic  families   in  the  south west  . It  was  in  the   Southwest   the  three  nurses  of    ST  Vincent  Hospital  in  Santa  Fe   and    a  Nurse  in  California  who  lost  their  jobs   because  they   refused  to help  in  Circumcisions  the   movement  to  halt  Circs  in   the  USA   really  got  started.   that   and  the  Fact  the a    fella  by  the  name  of  Bud  Burkley  who   started  a  club  called   USA   (Uncircumcised  Society of America)  also  promoted  the   trend   to  be  uncut.   so  in  1975-76    NO CIRC  was  formed  and   Wayne  R  Griffith   also   started  the   restoration  Movement     about   3  yrs   later    and   It  grew   from  there   .   In  1962   The  UK  stopped   Circs   all  together but   not  much  was  heard   about  that  trend.   In  the    late  1980    to  mid  1990 another    action took  place   and    it was  to  try  and  pass  laws to   hault  circs   like  that  in  the  UK    it  started     www.mgmbill.org   where   the   bill  was drafted    all  that was  needed   is  to  present  it  the   the    Govt   body  and    pass  it   to  make  it   law  .  Today   with  the  Economy  as  it  is       there  may  be  a  chance    with  the  new   health    ruling  that   we  could  get  it  passed   like  the  UK   in   that  it  SAVES  Dollars   if  the   Insurance   and   medical   folks    dont  pay  for  such  actions the  trend   may  infact    get    changed  and   we    be  more  like  the  UK    Intact. i  hope   so    Scoop
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monica
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2009, 11:40:05 AM »



Nonreligious circ began in the UK upper middle class around 1880, as the clean and proper thing
to do. In those days, sexual pleasure by any means other than vaginal between married parties was deemed seriously unethical. Hence boys masturbation was held in
horror. Circ was seen as making masturbation less likely or even impossible. The foreskin was also seen as a major player in STDs. Finally, circ was seen as making men
less randy, and much marital unhappiness was blamed on husbands who were too randy. The germ theory of disease made personal cleanliness imperative. That meant
that a boy's foreskin had to be checked for retractability, and he had to be taught to clean under it. This was deemed too sexually gross for mothers and nannies to do,
and fathers were seldom involved with the intimate hygiene of their sons in those days. Cutting the foreskin off nicely solved this embarrassing problem.

Soon circ came to be seen as a sort of cattle brand proving that one had educated and proper upper middle class parents. Never never underestimate the power of snob appeal!

We now know that masturbation is OK, that cut men contract STDs and masturbate, that cut men do not have more moral sex lives, and we are less embarrassed about
teaching a boy to keep himself clean. The other English speaking countries have largely given up circ. The USA has been slow to get the point, altho the percentage of baby
boys exiting the maternity ward intact is creeping up to 50%.

This thread is seeding a number of urban myths. My comments in capitals.


"It  was   german   doctors   who   helped   bring  the  idea   in..."
I DOUBT IT.

...in  this   country   USA    kelloggs  also   promoted  the  idea    that  all  males   be   circed   as  well.
TRUE


   Aftyer   WWI   and    especially  the     Second  world  war the  military    really  promoted  it   due to     the  lack  of  hygiene  in  the  war  zones  so  from  that  point  on   it  grew   even  more.
OUTSIDE OF COMBAT SITUATIONS, MILITARY DOCS/SURGEONS DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TO DO. MANY YOUNG RECRUITS WEREN"T CLEAN UNDER THE FORESKIN.
ERGO, CUT IT OFF. IN WWII, THE MEN FROM COMFORTABLE FAMILIES, WITH FATHERS IN THE PROFESSIONS AND MOTHERS WITH COLLEGE EDUCATIONS, WERE
USUALLY CUT. THE BOYS FROM FARM BACKGROUNDS, OR WHOSE FATHERS WORKED IN A MILL, TYPICALLY WERE NOT. GIs FROM LESS SOPHISTICATED BACKGROUNDS
TOOK THE HINT: CUT WAS COOL, PROPER, SOPHISTICATED, CLEAN.



   And  in  the    early  1940's    a  Dr   ben  Spock  the  baby  doctor   also    promoted  the  idea   that   ever  baby   should  be  cut
I HAVE READ MANY TIMES ABOUT SPOCK'S ADVOCATING CIRC. HE LATER RECANTED, BY THE WAY. IN 1941, THE MAIN USA MAGAZINE FOR PARENTS PUBLISHED A LONG
ARTICLE BY ALAN GUTTMACHER (PROF OF OBSTETRICS AT JOHNS HOPKINS) ADVOCATING CIRC.


    the  trend  really   grew    even  more   again  the  hold  outs   being  the     Italian and  polish  Americans   some   german  families  the    Amish ( German Baptists)  and  the   Natives Americans   (Indians of  the  south west)  and   today    the  influx of  hispanic  families   in  the  south west .
ALL THIS JELLS WITH MY READING AND EXPERIENCE. THE CIRC RATE AMONG USA CAUCASIANS NEVER EXCEEDED ~90%. THE AMISH HAVE ALWAYS BEEN BORN AT HOME. CIRC IS VERY MUCH ASSOCIATED WITH HOSPITAL BIRTH, WHICH DID NOT BECOME A MAJORITY THINGS UNTIL THE 1930s. ETHNIC CATHOLICS WERE LATE COMING TO THE CIRC PARTY, AND IN SOME CASES NEVER CAME AT ALL (CHICAGO POLES). WORKING CLASS AMERICANS DID NOT MUCH CIRCMCISE UNTIL THE 1940s.


 It  was  in  the   Southwest   the  three  nurses  of    ST  Vincent  Hospital  in  Santa  Fe   and    a  Nurse  in  California  who  lost  their  jobs   because  they   refused  to help  in  Circumcisions  the   movement  to  halt  Circs  in   the  USA   really  got  started.   that
MARILYN MILOS, MARIN CO CA, 1984. SHE FOUNDED NOCIRC IN 1985.
THE SANTA FE NURSES TOOK THEIR STAND A FEW YEARS LATER.


  and  the  Fact  the a    fella  by  the  name  of  Bud  Burkley  who   started  a  club  called   USA   (Uncircumcised  Society of America)  also  promoted  the   trend   to  be  uncut.
BERKELEY HAS NOT HAD MUCH IMPACT AMONG RESPECTABLE PEOPLE.

Wayne  R  Griffith   also   started  the   restoration  Movement     about   3  yrs   later    and   It  grew   from  there.
GRIFFITH AND MILOS ARE FRIENDLY. DON'T KNOW IF HE RESTORED BEFORE 1985 OR 1990. AFTER 1990, TUGGING REALLY TOOK OFF.


   In  1962   The  UK  stopped   Circs   all  together
THE UK GOVERNMENT STOPPED DOING IT FOR FREE IN 1950.

INTERESTING TO SEE WHETHER NEONATAL CIRC WILL BE COVERED BY ANY HEALTH CARE PLAN TO EMERGE FROM THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.
CIRC DIES WHEN FAMILIES ARE OUT OF POCKET FOR IT.
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